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	<title>Comments on: Fiat Money: The Fuel of Government</title>
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	<link>http://hbdbooks.com/2009/10/what-powers-government-fiat-money/</link>
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		<title>By: sabril</title>
		<link>http://hbdbooks.com/2009/10/what-powers-government-fiat-money/comment-page-2/#comment-36789</link>
		<dc:creator>sabril</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 00:56:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you.  Brad W, can you tell me which page or pages I should look at?  Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you.  Brad W, can you tell me which page or pages I should look at?  Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Hoste</title>
		<link>http://hbdbooks.com/2009/10/what-powers-government-fiat-money/comment-page-2/#comment-36785</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Hoste</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 00:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hbdbooks.com/?p=1721#comment-36785</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s the PDF for free

http://mises.org/books/historyofmoney.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s the PDF for free</p>
<p><a href="http://mises.org/books/historyofmoney.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://mises.org/books/historyofmoney.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: sabril</title>
		<link>http://hbdbooks.com/2009/10/what-powers-government-fiat-money/comment-page-2/#comment-36783</link>
		<dc:creator>sabril</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 00:01:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hbdbooks.com/?p=1721#comment-36783</guid>
		<description>&quot;I won’t quote the relevant part but I will link or at least list the address at Mises.org. Rothbard has written extensively on money, sound money, banking, the gold standard, etc.&quot;

Thank you, but your link goes to a place where you can purchase the book for $25.00.  Sorry, but it&#039;s not my burden to do your homework for you and to spend time and money searching for the argument (or evidence) you claim exists out there.

If you have an argument to make, please feel free to make it.  I&#039;m not interested in bare conclusions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I won’t quote the relevant part but I will link or at least list the address at Mises.org. Rothbard has written extensively on money, sound money, banking, the gold standard, etc.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thank you, but your link goes to a place where you can purchase the book for $25.00.  Sorry, but it&#8217;s not my burden to do your homework for you and to spend time and money searching for the argument (or evidence) you claim exists out there.</p>
<p>If you have an argument to make, please feel free to make it.  I&#8217;m not interested in bare conclusions.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad W</title>
		<link>http://hbdbooks.com/2009/10/what-powers-government-fiat-money/comment-page-2/#comment-36778</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 23:34:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hbdbooks.com/?p=1721#comment-36778</guid>
		<description>I won&#039;t quote the relevant part but I will link or at least list the address at Mises.org.  Rothbard has written extensively on money, sound money, banking, the gold standard, etc.  
http://mises.org/store/History-of-Money-and-Banking-in-the-United-States-P191.aspx</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I won&#8217;t quote the relevant part but I will link or at least list the address at Mises.org.  Rothbard has written extensively on money, sound money, banking, the gold standard, etc.<br />
<a href="http://mises.org/store/History-of-Money-and-Banking-in-the-United-States-P191.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://mises.org/store/History-of-Money-and-Banking-in-the-United-States-P191.aspx</a></p>
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		<title>By: sg</title>
		<link>http://hbdbooks.com/2009/10/what-powers-government-fiat-money/comment-page-2/#comment-36565</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:47:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hbdbooks.com/?p=1721#comment-36565</guid>
		<description>Deutsche Bank con&#039;t


Was it yet another bank bailout? Has another bank sucked up precious resources belonging, in this case, to the people of Europe? Gold is needed to bring confidence to the Euro currency, as often noted by Germany’s Bundesbank, which seems to be less kind to German banks than the ECB. Why should the ECB be permitted to sell gold to closely connected derivatives dealers, if the primary purpose is to save those dealers from the bad decisions they have made, and the end result is to reinforce moral hazard? Should banks like Deutsche Bank be allowed to take on more derivative risk than they can afford without involving publicly owned assets? Did Deutsche Bank issue naked short positions? Have innocent European citizens now had their currency placed at more risk, and some of their gold stolen from them, simply to enrich private hands? All of these questions are begging for answers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deutsche Bank con&#8217;t</p>
<p>Was it yet another bank bailout? Has another bank sucked up precious resources belonging, in this case, to the people of Europe? Gold is needed to bring confidence to the Euro currency, as often noted by Germany’s Bundesbank, which seems to be less kind to German banks than the ECB. Why should the ECB be permitted to sell gold to closely connected derivatives dealers, if the primary purpose is to save those dealers from the bad decisions they have made, and the end result is to reinforce moral hazard? Should banks like Deutsche Bank be allowed to take on more derivative risk than they can afford without involving publicly owned assets? Did Deutsche Bank issue naked short positions? Have innocent European citizens now had their currency placed at more risk, and some of their gold stolen from them, simply to enrich private hands? All of these questions are begging for answers.</p>
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		<title>By: sg</title>
		<link>http://hbdbooks.com/2009/10/what-powers-government-fiat-money/comment-page-2/#comment-36564</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:42:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hbdbooks.com/?p=1721#comment-36564</guid>
		<description>You may have seen this back in April, but it looks like the current conditions are the worst for anyone who would issue more gold certificates than they can really deliver.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/129128-did-the-ecb-save-comex-from-gold-default

On Tuesday, March 31st, Deutsche Bank (DB) amazed everyone even more, by delivering a massive 850,000 ounces, or 8500 contracts worth of the yellow metal. By the close of business, even after this massive delivery, about 15,050 April contracts, or 1.5 million ounces, still remained to be delivered. Most of these, of course, are unlikely to be the obligations of Deutsche Bank. But, the fact that this particular bank turned out to be one of the biggest short sellers of gold, is a surprise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You may have seen this back in April, but it looks like the current conditions are the worst for anyone who would issue more gold certificates than they can really deliver.</p>
<p><a href="http://seekingalpha.com/article/129128-did-the-ecb-save-comex-from-gold-default" rel="nofollow">http://seekingalpha.com/article/129128-did-the-ecb-save-comex-from-gold-default</a></p>
<p>On Tuesday, March 31st, Deutsche Bank (DB) amazed everyone even more, by delivering a massive 850,000 ounces, or 8500 contracts worth of the yellow metal. By the close of business, even after this massive delivery, about 15,050 April contracts, or 1.5 million ounces, still remained to be delivered. Most of these, of course, are unlikely to be the obligations of Deutsche Bank. But, the fact that this particular bank turned out to be one of the biggest short sellers of gold, is a surprise.</p>
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		<title>By: sabril</title>
		<link>http://hbdbooks.com/2009/10/what-powers-government-fiat-money/comment-page-2/#comment-36562</link>
		<dc:creator>sabril</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hbdbooks.com/?p=1721#comment-36562</guid>
		<description>&quot;Most of the information pertinent to this thread can be found in Murray N. Rothbard’s excellent book “A History of Banking in the United States” (available at Mises.org.)&quot;

I searched that web site but could not find the book you are referring to.  Would you mind linking to it AND quoting the relevant part?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Most of the information pertinent to this thread can be found in Murray N. Rothbard’s excellent book “A History of Banking in the United States” (available at Mises.org.)&#8221;</p>
<p>I searched that web site but could not find the book you are referring to.  Would you mind linking to it AND quoting the relevant part?</p>
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		<title>By: Brad W</title>
		<link>http://hbdbooks.com/2009/10/what-powers-government-fiat-money/comment-page-2/#comment-36538</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hbdbooks.com/?p=1721#comment-36538</guid>
		<description>Most of the information pertinent to this thread can be found in Murray N. Rothbard&#039;s excellent book &quot;A History of Banking in the United States&quot; (available at Mises.org.)  The voluntary exchange market does an excellent job of keeping banks honest, if they inflate the # of certificates above the amount of gold they have on hand to satisfy depositors they are under the constant threat of a run that would reveal their fraud.  Fractional Reserve banking is fraudulent at its core and central banking has always been an attempt to cartelize the banking system and back up the fractional reserve system with a &quot;lender of last resort&quot; so that bankers can  continue to counterfeit.  It&#039;s really as simple as that.  Fraud is fraud whether it is issuing more gold certificates than you have gold in storage or creating some sort of digital chit that you say represents an amount of gold that you don&#039;t have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of the information pertinent to this thread can be found in Murray N. Rothbard&#8217;s excellent book &#8220;A History of Banking in the United States&#8221; (available at Mises.org.)  The voluntary exchange market does an excellent job of keeping banks honest, if they inflate the # of certificates above the amount of gold they have on hand to satisfy depositors they are under the constant threat of a run that would reveal their fraud.  Fractional Reserve banking is fraudulent at its core and central banking has always been an attempt to cartelize the banking system and back up the fractional reserve system with a &#8220;lender of last resort&#8221; so that bankers can  continue to counterfeit.  It&#8217;s really as simple as that.  Fraud is fraud whether it is issuing more gold certificates than you have gold in storage or creating some sort of digital chit that you say represents an amount of gold that you don&#8217;t have.</p>
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		<title>By: sabril</title>
		<link>http://hbdbooks.com/2009/10/what-powers-government-fiat-money/comment-page-2/#comment-36526</link>
		<dc:creator>sabril</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 08:31:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hbdbooks.com/?p=1721#comment-36526</guid>
		<description>&quot;Of course, there have always been some banks, even in the 1850s, that couldn’t resist trying the corrupt, fraudulent tactic of issuing certs beyond what they actually held in their vaults.&quot;

Fundamentally, how is that any different from the situation today?  There are numerous providers of e-gold.  Presumably some are tempted to issue more paper gold than the amount of real gold they hold in reserve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Of course, there have always been some banks, even in the 1850s, that couldn’t resist trying the corrupt, fraudulent tactic of issuing certs beyond what they actually held in their vaults.&#8221;</p>
<p>Fundamentally, how is that any different from the situation today?  There are numerous providers of e-gold.  Presumably some are tempted to issue more paper gold than the amount of real gold they hold in reserve.</p>
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		<title>By: barbara dolan</title>
		<link>http://hbdbooks.com/2009/10/what-powers-government-fiat-money/comment-page-2/#comment-36506</link>
		<dc:creator>barbara dolan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 01:28:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hbdbooks.com/?p=1721#comment-36506</guid>
		<description>“Simple. The ‘paper gold’ that exists today is a fraud.”

And the same argument would apply to the United States back when we were on the gold standard, right?

No.  The difference is:  The silver / gold certificates at that time in circulation were immediately redeemable for silver / gold just by strolling into a bank. Anyone could do it, easily.  No need to hire an armored truck to go get your 100 ozs if you want to take delivery of a futures contract.  The inconvenience of actually taking delivery of 100 ozs. is part of the reason so many otherwise-honest futures buyers don&#039;t take delivery of their gold. And the fraudsters know it and take advantage of the fact that few take delivery.  It&#039;s what makes it so easy for them to be able to get away with issuing more contracts than ozs. exist.
  
Of course, there have always been some banks, even in the 1850s, that couldn&#039;t resist trying the corrupt, fraudulent tactic of issuing certs beyond what they actually held in their vaults.  And when the market got wind of it, which it always did, a run on the bank ensued -- which, rightly, brought down the fraudulent bank, and corrupt CEOs got tossed in jail.  So the anti-fraud system worked.  
Some innocent people got hurt, to be sure. BUT, the fraud WAS stopped before the damage was massive-beyond-words, as we are seeing today.  The trouble really WAS contained, unlike Mr. Bernanke&#039;s announcement in 2008.

BUT when the Fed Reserve System came into to being to &quot;stop the runs on banks&quot; -- with the eventual result, as planned, of going off the gold standard completely -- the fraudster banks no longer needed to worry about being found out.  The Fed would look after &#039;em, and no banksters need fear jail --as we are seeing the Fed do, just now, today.

Multiple, independent auditing agencies, some governmental, some non-profit non-governmental public interest groups, some for-profit rating agencies, all independently auditing the vaults of the digital-gold banks is the obvious answer to the reality that banks will ALWAYS succumb to the temptation, if they think they can get away with it, of issuing more gold-representers than they have gold.  It&#039;s a known ill, with a known cure.

What&#039;s different today that makes a return to a gold standard so doable is that we can use exceedingly tiny amounts of gold for tiny transactions, because we can do it electronically.  This was not possible in 1850.  The gold you carried around back then had to be big enough to see.  A microgram, with the purchasing power of a roll of t.p., would have been too easily misplaced to work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Simple. The ‘paper gold’ that exists today is a fraud.”</p>
<p>And the same argument would apply to the United States back when we were on the gold standard, right?</p>
<p>No.  The difference is:  The silver / gold certificates at that time in circulation were immediately redeemable for silver / gold just by strolling into a bank. Anyone could do it, easily.  No need to hire an armored truck to go get your 100 ozs if you want to take delivery of a futures contract.  The inconvenience of actually taking delivery of 100 ozs. is part of the reason so many otherwise-honest futures buyers don&#8217;t take delivery of their gold. And the fraudsters know it and take advantage of the fact that few take delivery.  It&#8217;s what makes it so easy for them to be able to get away with issuing more contracts than ozs. exist.</p>
<p>Of course, there have always been some banks, even in the 1850s, that couldn&#8217;t resist trying the corrupt, fraudulent tactic of issuing certs beyond what they actually held in their vaults.  And when the market got wind of it, which it always did, a run on the bank ensued &#8212; which, rightly, brought down the fraudulent bank, and corrupt CEOs got tossed in jail.  So the anti-fraud system worked.<br />
Some innocent people got hurt, to be sure. BUT, the fraud WAS stopped before the damage was massive-beyond-words, as we are seeing today.  The trouble really WAS contained, unlike Mr. Bernanke&#8217;s announcement in 2008.</p>
<p>BUT when the Fed Reserve System came into to being to &#8220;stop the runs on banks&#8221; &#8212; with the eventual result, as planned, of going off the gold standard completely &#8212; the fraudster banks no longer needed to worry about being found out.  The Fed would look after &#8216;em, and no banksters need fear jail &#8211;as we are seeing the Fed do, just now, today.</p>
<p>Multiple, independent auditing agencies, some governmental, some non-profit non-governmental public interest groups, some for-profit rating agencies, all independently auditing the vaults of the digital-gold banks is the obvious answer to the reality that banks will ALWAYS succumb to the temptation, if they think they can get away with it, of issuing more gold-representers than they have gold.  It&#8217;s a known ill, with a known cure.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s different today that makes a return to a gold standard so doable is that we can use exceedingly tiny amounts of gold for tiny transactions, because we can do it electronically.  This was not possible in 1850.  The gold you carried around back then had to be big enough to see.  A microgram, with the purchasing power of a roll of t.p., would have been too easily misplaced to work.</p>
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